Breaking the Glass Ceiling: Empowering Women in K-12 Leadership

Dr. Jim: [: 00:00:00

It's no different in the K through 12 space. The front lines of K through 12 education is staffed by more women than men. What do we see as we move up the leadership ladder? Fewer and fewer faces that look like 51 percent of the population is what's typical across districts all over the U. S. So how can K through 12 districts be more intentional about building a leadership pipeline and bench strength?

superintendent for the past [: 00:01:00

She's the author of comfy shoes and key chains tips were for women in leadership and making personnel personal. Human resources for K through 12 schools. Carrie has also published numerous journal articles and presented in locals and state conferences on the topics of leadership, finance, fiscal responsibility, and legislative advocacy.

Carrie, welcome to the show.

Dr. Carrie Hruby: Thank you, Dr. Jim. Appreciate the opportunity and happy to be here.

Dr. Jim: i'm really looking forward to this conversation I'm glad to have you on because I don't think in all of the conversations that we've had We've actually dug into the issue of building a women centric leadership pipeline or leadership effort at the district level.

ave. But before we dive into [: 00:02:00

Key moments in your career that helped shaped how you show up as a leader.

Dr. Carrie Hruby: Yeah, thanks. When I was going through college and for my entire life, I was excited to be an elementary teacher. That was something that I thought would be my career until I retired, very much enjoyed specifically elementary teaching second grade. And so I had a successful, what I would call a successful career as a teacher but at some point in my career, I've had individuals tap me on the shoulder and say, okay, it's time for the next step.

And as you become a teacher leader, a leader of, of other teachers and you're building, oftentimes you're tapped on the shoulder and someone says, I think you can do this. So I've been fortunate to be in those opportunities and be able to just continue my education.

'm going to take? What's the [: 00:03:00

And I was, so I was pretty fortunate that there were several people along the way who mentors or role models for me who said, okay, it's time. It's time for that next step in your career. And that's, how I got to the point I'm at,

Dr. Jim: So there's something really interesting that I want to dig into, and I don't think it's unique to the K through 12 space. We always talk. We always hear from leaders who are from underrepresented communities in all sorts of different sectors that it took somebody to tap them on the shoulder before they actually started thinking about what's next for them.

that look back and what you [: 00:04:00

one of the stories that I wrote about in my book is is exactly that type of situation where I went into my as I mentioned, I've had people tap me on the shoulder and say, you are someone that we see leadership potential in our district. And so I've pursued that, but I sat down for my first superintendent interview, and it was, a district that I had worked in that knew me well as an assistant superintendent.

Dr. Carrie Hruby: And, I was going through the interview. I knew all of the board members had a great deal of respect for them. And I feel like they did as well for me. And so as I did that I, we were finishing up the interview and I had one of the male board members said, paused and said it when they, finished up the interview rounds.

And they said, does anyone else have questions for Carrie? This male board member stopped and said, I'd like to ask her the gender question. And I stopped and said I'm not sure I understood. And fortunately someone sitting next to him, a female board member said, you can't ask her that question.

g enough in my career that I [: 00:05:00

Am I tough enough to do this role? Am I going to be. able to make those tough decisions. We knew what was understood by his question. And it was somewhat innocent. I don't think that he was intending to be it make me feel mad. I think it was a gender bias question, and I think he didn't see it that way necessarily, but he was trying to shake out something that hadn't necessarily been brought up in the conversation.

And so I look back on that now and at the time, I just allowed it to the other board member cut it off and said, we can't ask for that question. And I wish that I had said, no, I actually would like to answer that question. I would like to address the fact that I am your only female candidate.

female superintendent. And I [: 00:06:00

Dr. Jim: So I wish that I had been able to step back and take that step and say no, actually, I do want to answer that question because there is a gender question and we can talk about gender and how we approach situations differently as females versus male leaders in an organization.

That's a really interesting answer and I wasn't expecting you to take it that direction. And I think, I was leaning back in my chair as you were Giving that answer. And I was thinking, does it even make sense to address those sort of questions?

elves beyond what is listed. [: 00:07:00

That's not really relevant to the conversation, but I think I think the way that what you said impacted me is that we need to get away from this constant, like having to prove ourselves to, to demonstrate that we. Are we belong in these rooms? So i'm going to push back slightly on that How would you respond to somebody that just gave you that response?

I just literally gave you that response So what how does that shape your retrospective that you just shared?

Dr. Carrie Hruby: Absolutely. And I think that's exactly where the tension in that room became that I was somehow having to explain how I could do something that, that my male peers wouldn't have to explain. I think you bring up a really good point that, should I have been asked to, to verify and justify that I am capable of doing this role simply because of my gender.

was the natural tendency was [: 00:08:00

And like I said, I don't think he meant any ill intention necessarily, but that was his natural reaction. What's your different from what we've had in the past and from what we are, everyone else that we're interviewing? And so you need to talk to that about talk to us about that. And shake that out.

And yeah, I think that it needs to be called out not to, to say he's done anything wrong, but as a society, we continue to do that. We continue to ask, how do you come to this work differently? And in the context of that situation. 10 plus years ago, that was in the context of that situation.

able to stop and say, no, I [: 00:09:00

And those are things that, I want to talk about how I would approach this role differently than perhaps my colleagues.

Dr. Jim: That's a great perspective and thanks for sharing that. When you look at the k through 12 landscape And particularly the leadership landscape in K through 12. What are the things that you've seen and observed throughout your career?

arter of all superintendents [: 00:10:00

And so it's interesting that that we're underrepresented in that way. And so in a field that is predominantly female, and I think that especially now post pandemic and during a shortage. I think that is something that we need to shake out and explore because we do need leaders that are compassionate and empathetic to address the shortages, to address the needs that are out there, the level of burnout that people are feeling that needs to be something we have to address this role in a different way than we've ever done in the past.

issues that we're all facing.[: 00:11:00

And so more than ever now, I think that is an important thing for women to feel like they can enter into this position and be supported in it. On the other hand, I think the difficult part is that now, more than ever, women are less likely to enter into that role and or stay in that role. So that's what I'm seeing is that it's less and less likely.

Dr. Jim: Again a really interesting perspective, especially when you look at the.

Demographics and representation and leadership. You have 80 percent of the workforce that are who are women and not even 30 percent that are in leadership. So that's an interesting dynamic. When you look at that disparity between the front lines and leadership, what are some of the reasons that you believe are driving women or keeping women from not pursuing the leadership pipeline?

men not feeling like it's My [: 00:12:00

And so that lack of confidence I think family commitments and needing a balance and seeing that this is a very difficult Yeah. Role to balance family commitments with because of the demands of the position. I think also women typically tend to wait till later in their life to entertain the idea of leadership because partly because of the balance of young Children.

statements about and public [: 00:13:00

And I think that. Because of that, and some of the anger that's out there and the immediate criticisms that women are less likely to enter into that role and, or to stay in that role that they're feeling like constant attacks on social media are just not something that they're interested in having as part of their life.

And I think that can be really difficult.

Dr. Jim: There's a couple of things that you mentioned in there that I want to dig into you in the first. is what you described as a lack of confidence. I think all of us are familiar with the term imposter syndrome and you described a good example of it where, in general women will look at a job description and if they don't have 80 percent or more of what's listed, they won't apply.

e a shot so When you look at [: 00:14:00

Dr. Carrie Hruby: So I think it's an excellent point. And I think how do we build that confidence is there are multiple things that we can be doing. Number one is to put in place strong mentors, as I mentioned, not just role models are important. It's important for women to see themselves.

leadership role as with a role model, but it's even more so important to have mentors and mentors don't necessarily have to be female mentors, but they need to have a strong mentor. And oftentimes female leaders don't have the access to those as much as a male leader might. And perhaps it's because they're not reaching out to someone to say, will you mentor me through this process?

ut those things in place. We [: 00:15:00

Someone listening to you as you struggle through a problem is really important in that mentor piece. I think it's also important that we have opportunities for hands on leadership experience because again if we know that women are looking at job descriptions and saying, yeah, I haven't yet done that.

I haven't yet balanced a budget or I haven't yet written a levy to make sure that, I don't know that process yet. If we know that's what they're doing and then I think we need to have opportunities for women to try those to have those leadership opportunities and to experience that with a mentor to support them along the way.

Okay. I think that those are all really important pieces of helping aspiring female leaders to take that next step.

You know, high potentials or [: 00:16:00

So I think that's a that's a really strong idea. I want to go back to something that you mentioned earlier. That you were talking about potential hesitance and stepping into leadership roles as a result of the social media environment out there and in general, when you're looking at social media in relationship to K through 12, it's a lot of gotcha journalism.

tial critiques that come out [: 00:17:00

Dr. Carrie Hruby: Yeah, I think there are several things that, that I think need to happen. Number one, we need to not take it personally. And I think. That is a difference between the female leaders and the male leaders. I think the male leaders typically are able to separate themselves and say, that's not an attack on me personally, but then the female leaders feel like it is personal to take it personally.

And it's partly because we care, it's partly because, but being able to step back and perhaps it's a maturity piece too, as you come into the role and you've dealt with those situations over time, you start to get more Calloused to it, if nothing else, that you realize that's a person who may be lodging a complaint or a criticism online, but has never once called my office to, to talk about that situation.

about any decisions that are [: 00:18:00

Time and time again in the covid pandemic, because there were no decisions that were good at that time. No one liked any decision that was made. There was anger on both sides and it was very politically driven. And so I think that showed up, really was an illustration to us that we have to step away from the social media and not have to.

Be informed by it, but not be driven by it or take it personally. But I also think that that again, women need to understand that it's okay to reach out to a mentor and say, how do I handle this? Because a mentor might say to them, for example, okay, if someone lodges some sort of criticism online with social media, simply write back and say, if you'd like to call my office, I'll talk through this with you.

Because typically, that kind of shuts it down because then the rest of the community can see that you've addressed it. You've taken it on and you've asked this person to call you and if the person chooses not to that's fine. But if there is a concern that they have just simply writing a reply and saying, I'd like to talk this through with you.

ive me a call or an email at [: 00:19:00

Because then the community sees that A, you're addressing it, but B, this person probably hasn't ever called, to the leader, but is willing to lodge some sort of, campaign, smear campaign or whatever it might be on that situation. So I think that those are things that, that women need to have again, having mentors, but also having someone to help them see that don't take it personally because it's not personal.

Dr. Jim: So that's really good advice. And I think the one other area that I would add, especially to your point about, if you see something online that prompts a response, the response should be giving me a call. The other piece that I would add to that is don't try to hash it out in the comments section because you'll always lose.

ave a pretty good background [: 00:20:00

What I'd like to do is understand Given your role as a superintendent in a decent sized district, what are the things that you've done within the district to create that leadership pipeline and bench strength with a specific focus on representation at all levels of leadership?

Dr. Carrie Hruby: Very intentionally we've created opportunities for aspiring leaders. So not just tapping someone on the shoulder and saying, Hey, I think it's your turn to apply for this position. I think it has to go beyond that. And so what we've done is we've developed a what we call learn and lead Academy.

in becoming a leader in the [: 00:21:00

And so these are teacher leaders or those that are aspiring to be in a leadership role. And so they come together every few weeks in the evening, and they have discussions about leadership. They have discussions about specifically about various roles, like the principalship that they may be interested in pursuing and then they get some experience as well.

They will dig into a project to say, let's rewrite the elementary school schedule and let's look at what would happen if we did this and this. So they're doing some actual work for us on some strategic goals that we have, but then they're also able to take their leadership to the next level and have some hands on experience and really, working together as a cohort and talking through various pieces of leadership.

ring superintendents. And so [: 00:22:00

Dr. Jim: So digging in a little bit into both of those topics, I think the super learn and lead is particularly interesting because you're, we talked about it earlier, giving people a taste of the job before they're in the job. So they're taking that Seat of doubt off the table when they actually go for the big chair.

So that makes sense. But I want to take a step down and look at the learn and lead Academy in general. Tell us a little bit more about how the with the learn and lead program, how people can be selected for the program.

And I'm particularly interested in how you're removing bias of any sort in that. And you're also eliminating, just selecting the people that raise their hands all the time,.

and then we did reach out to [: 00:24:00

The chief of police and to talk about various topics in the community the mayor an HR expert, we brought our legal counsel in. So we saw it as a speaker series at first. But it now has evolved more into a selection from our administrative team, reaching out to individuals and specifically selecting them.

We have minority candidates when there we have female leaders, as I mentioned, aspiring leaders and male leaders as well. But this is, it's evolved into more of a selection process where we're saying we've seen, that this person has shown some interest in leadership.

re, there really needs to be [: 00:25:00

They are able to say, I've done this and this. I've redone an elementary school schedule. I've rewritten policies on a B and C. So having those hands on experiences builds their confidence, but also, gives them the ability to be able to speak to specific activities that they have done or specific leadership opportunities they've had.

And then we as a district are also benefiting because they're in their district. Having those leadership roles and being able to help our district in various tasks or various strategic goals.

Dr. Jim: So I'm thinking back to one of the things that you mentioned early on in the conversation, and that was, it wasn't until somebody tapped you on the shoulder. You started thinking about this as a viable possibility. Now, there may be a whole segment of the employee population within the district that don't see in themselves what other leaders might see in them.

So [: 00:26:00

Dr. Carrie Hruby: And I think that we've been able to do that successfully because we have this program. If we had just been like my career was just. Someone might pass you in a hallway and say, Hey, great job in that committee today. You should be a leader. I don't know. I haven't really had those experiences but by creating an academy like this, there is specific opportunities for each of the building principles to say, okay, who in my building should I seek out?

And then maybe they haven't tapped someone on the shoulder in the past, but they say, you know what? I'm my superintendent has asked me to put together a list of individuals and so specifically, I'm going to go into and look at my staffing, and say who in our building would be able to do this.

ing because every time we go [: 00:27:00

And so at the end of our learning lead sessions, we always go around the room. And it is really powerful to hear some of them say, I didn't know why I was invited to be here, but now I get it. I see why I'm here. And it almost gives you chills to think this is someone realizing you have a you have leadership potential, but also we're going to help you get there.

We're going to help you with the things that you need in order to walk in confidently to that interview and then confidently do that role. And then hopefully they're developing mentors within that cohort as well. Thank you. And with those of us that are leading this opportunity, they're able to say, this is someone I could call and it's okay because, that maybe I've told them that was something that I struggled with, when I was first starting and here's how I balanced it, or here's how I did that.

re specific, because we were [: 00:28:00

This is an intentional step that we're taking to create that leadership opportunity for lots of individuals. We try to repeat it, not just one cohort, but another cohort in the future, and give others opportunities as well.

Dr. Jim: So I want to dig in to the quote unquote marketing aspect of this a little bit. So when you look at building a leadership pipeline and building leadership, Ben strength. When I think about, where are the sources of failure that might exist in a program like this, I would imagine that happens at the building level and at the principal seat, because you have to work through your principles to cultivate that momentum that feeds that funnel.

So tell me a little bit more about how you've. Leveled up the principles to have the right set of eyes to act as a feeder or evangelist for this program.

it's not just the individual [: 00:29:00

It's us having a conversation as a team. So the curriculum director, for example, says, you know what? I've actually seen some really great things from teacher. Teacher A, who was in one of my curriculum meetings, and maybe the principal says, I didn't realize that she was such a leader. Yeah, you should see her in these curriculum conversations.

There's a lot of really great things that this person brings to the table because you're right. Sometimes people just aren't willing to put their hand up and say, Hey, I'd like to have that opportunity, but someone else on our team, our administrative team.

isn't just a cohort that is [: 00:30:00

These are individuals who might want to be special ed coordinators who might want to be curriculum coordinators who might want to be a principal or assistant principal, a dean of students, they may want to just be a superintendent someday. So they're looking at all of those. So it's not just a cohort to create principles.

We're trying to let them see that this is just about leadership and taking your next step as an aspiring leader, whatever that might be. So growing those opportunities is really important.

Dr. Jim: Really good stuff so far, Carrie and I like how you're approaching this from a systemic perspective you've tackled it. from the frontline perspective. And then you've also put in supports and processes for people that want to go the superintendent track as well.

So when you look at all of that, what's been the impact within the district when it comes to leadership development, especially from women leaders perspective and also an overall retention perspective as well.

r. Carrie Hruby: Yeah. So we [: 00:31:00

But I had the tools to get beyond it because I've had experiences. I think that anecdotally we've seen a lot of success, but then also when we're having, we have a retire, a retirement coming up. And when we post positions, we're seeing some of those aspiring leaders put their name in the hat that might not have done that in the past.

ing to put their name in the [: 00:32:00

So in terms of retention too, I think that's the other piece is. Not only helping to encourage individuals to become, leaders, superintendents, principals, but also to retain. Because I think, oftentimes you'll see that a female leader will get into the role and then say, you know what, I don't know that this is for me.

And kind of step back, even though they may be a very skilled leader. saying, I don't know that I can continue to do this. So I think retention, you mentioned retention, and I think that's so important to in this whole conversation about supporting women in leadership is that we have that support in place, not just for those that are aspiring to the role, but also those that are currently in the role because it is a very challenging, specifically, the superintendent is very challenging position.

I. S. A. Has the association [: 00:33:00

So creating a situation where individuals can come forward together as women and leadership and elevate themselves and their colleagues, but also celebrate. The fact that we have some really positive things to bring to this position. I also feel like it's important to continue to have these conversations like we're having today on the podcast that to, to, encourage aspiring, but also encourage the current women in leadership to stay in that role by having these conversations and letting them know that there are things that you can do to support one another is so important.

r. And I think that needs to [: 00:34:00

Dr. Jim: We've covered a lot of ground in this conversation, and I'd like you to take a zoom out approach. If there's somebody that's listening to this discussion and they want to replicate. What you've done in their district, what are the key elements that they need to consider when they're trying to set up a leadership pipeline and build leadership bench strength among the women high potentials within their district?

Dr. Carrie Hruby: I think number one, when you're setting up any program is to look at strategically. What is your goal? So my goal was to help empower individuals. I saw it as a need when I would interview people that I thought that were in our organization that I thought were good educators, strong educators.

as my goal. Great. Take away [: 00:35:00

Potentially there is as retirements come aboard. Are you looking specifically? Are you building the capacity of your current team in order to take over those roles? Looking at a list of what are, who are our current or upcoming retirees within the next 5 to 10 years, who's going to be retiring?

And do we have individuals that are capable of taking over those roles? And I think that's even more important now that there's a national teacher shortage, that there's a national educator shortage, because we know teacher shortage ends up being leader shortage as well. And empowering individuals within your organization to stay there and to rise into that next level.

So I think the first step is for the leader to say, What is it that I'm trying to do? Am I trying to backfill some of these positions? Am I trying to empower, leadership within our organization so that everyone's on the same page? Identifying those goals and then designing the program and using the people within your organization to lead that too.

And that's [: 00:36:00

Dr. Jim: Really good stuff. If people want to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Dr. Carrie Hruby: Email is great. Twitter. I'm pretty involved on Twitter. So that's always a great way to connect to colleagues and LinkedIn clearly is another good way to connect.

Dr. Jim: Awesome stuff. So I appreciate you hanging out and sharing your model for leadership development and especially elevating women into leadership. I think it's an important conversation that needs to be continued. And it needs to be something that is an intentional focus for many leaders in many districts Because when you have a an employee population An educator population that's made up of 80 women and then leaders Who are women are only at?

think one of the one of the [: 00:37:00

So having that matrix decisioning process really helps build a robust funnel where you can have these high potential women leaders that are entering in your program and building a succession pipeline for you. So really appreciate you sharing that. For those of you who have been listening to this conversation, we appreciate you hanging out.

ng with us the game changing [: 00:38:00