Revolutionizing Recruitment: Filling Hard-to-Find Roles with Existing Talent

Dr. Jim: [: 00:00:00

You have in some occasions the long hours, the low pay. You have all of the different stakeholders that you have to manage as an educator, and when you look at all of that. And you move higher up the chain of command. You have increasing levels of constraints that district leaders have to deal with.

Districts as a whole are often running thin because they can't find enough talent to fill all of the different roles that they need to fill. In today's conversation, we're gonna look at how you can take a redeployment strategy of your existing talent as a way to fill those hard to find roles, and then use a talent pipeline to fill the easier roles.

years, and he fully [: 00:01:00

He started as a teacher and a lacrosse coach in Bridgewater, Rayton in New Jersey. And then from there he became a middle school principal in Spotswood. And he often jokes that if his middle school teachers ever found out that he was a principal, they'd probably pass out from shock.

He believes wholeheartedly that through his own struggles that's what's made him a really strong leader when it came to the field of education and education leadership. He's obtained his master's and doctorate in educational leadership, and then he spent three years as the superintendent of Free Township, a small single school district.

h three sons just like I do. [: 00:02:00

And when he's not dealing with all of that. He's usually on the lacrosse or soccer field, and he is also racing boats on a regular occasion and travels across the country all through the summer. Brian, welcome to the show.

Dr. Brian Kitchin: Thanks so much, Jim. Really appreciate you having me on.

Dr. Jim: Yeah, I'm I'm pumped to have this conversation and especially because it brings me back to my recruiting roots from the private sector. So I'm always interested in in understanding some of those talent attraction and deployment best practices that K through 12 districts are doing. But before we dive into that piece of the conversation.

Now we got a fair amount of information in your bio, but I want to dig in a little bit and get a better understanding for myself as well as the listeners, some of those key moments in your career that helped shape your leadership philosophy and even your educational philosophy.

ministrators over that time. [: 00:03:00

And then from there, I really spent a lot of time trying to get involved at every single, in every single opportunity I could, every district level committee made a relationship with a lot of different administrators, just looking for that guidance and growth to take that next step for myself.

And I carried a lot of that with me as I stepped into my first administrative role. And I think it was really valuable in my success in that role because it gave me the information that I needed to be able to go in there and be successful, not least of which is you don't know everything.

So you need to be able to rely on the people around you and empower others to to help make sure that the place is successful.

d throughout your career. It [: 00:04:00

And the reason why I caught my attention is because one of the more challenging things in any leadership position is to build a culture of construction. Confrontation. How did those instances of disagreements shape how you lead today and deal with disagreements as they come up within the district?

Dr. Brian Kitchin: Yeah, I think that's really important. It actually was a huge element of my decision when I got into a leadership role to start a leadership committee. So when I first got to Spotswood, I formed a leadership committee. It was a volunteer committee after school. I had, it was open to anybody. But I pulled people from every different grade level subject area and made sure they all had a voice in this committee.

ess different issues we were [: 00:05:00

I needed stepping into a new administrative role. Again, I didn't know everything, so I needed to rely on those around me to be masters of their own domain and to take control of certain elements of things that were going on. But something that was an added bonus was that it really helped a lot with.

Making sure all perspectives were considered. Even when there'd be times where people were viewing things through a different lens, it didn't change the fact that we were able to sit down and have conversations where we could see the collective impact of an initiative we were putting in place.

n't put other people in that [: 00:06:00

Dr. Jim: That's really good application of some of your learning. I think a lot of people talk about, creating cultures or organizations where everybody has a seat at the table. And it's always good to see that actually put into practice. I guess one of the things that I'm wondering about is.

It's always good to have as many voices be heard as possible, but not every voice is going to agree with a particular course of action. So in those instances, how do you break the tie? How do you build consensus and move forward in those scenarios? I.

Dr. Brian Kitchin: A good question. I. When you're in that room, the conversation tends to steer itself, right? So if we as leaders try to set a destination, it's not necessarily our job to find the roadmap to there. When you have the group together trying to find that pathway, even those people who would've taken a different route, I think.

lot of people disagree. And [: 00:07:00

You still tend to get behind the you still tend to get behind the initiative and be supportive because you know that you have been able to speak your piece and you know that your voice has been heard. It's just not the, not where we landed and maybe the next conversation, you're gonna be the driver, but for this one, you're taking a back seat.

I gotta say I've never really faced a situation in my career in educational leadership. Where I didn't have support with an initiative we were rolling out because I made sure the voices were being heard and there was never a time that people disagreed. But we, I really haven't had a lot of times where people weren't supportive of the outcome.

'cause they know that had a voice in.

trict and maybe even why you [: 00:08:00

I.

seven different schools about: 3000

Goals of the community, small town feel a lot of people who have been here their whole lives. We have a lot of teachers that grew up in town, a lot of administrators that grew up in town, A lot of families in this school that are second, third, fourth generation. And that's something that's really similar to the former, the district.

I was informally. And the biggest difference is everything is on a larger scale here, right? There's more going on and I.

e and there's a lot of other [: 00:09:00

There's more going on. But a lot of the challenges are very similar to what I already faced and that really made the transition phase easy. That coupled with the fact that I have really rally great administrators around me.

n you get to a bigger place, [: 00:10:00

So how did you. What were the guard rails that you put in front of yourself, or what was the process that you put in front of yourself so you're not getting in everybody's kitchen because that's just what you're used to, having worn all these different hats in the smaller environment.

Dr. Brian Kitchin: Yeah, no, I think that's really fair. So for me step one was making sure I was having those conversations with the different administrators. I had an entrance plan that I created for myself just as a, my own sort of roadmap to how I was gonna move forward with things. And I identified so many different stakeholders, not just within the district, within the community.

I had a chance to sit down, talk to them about their history in the district, talk to them about the the different things that they're involved in. What are their goals? What do they think are some areas of struggle? And it really helped to paint me a picture of how things currently function.

eas of focus that we want to [: 00:11:00

So I felt like even before the first day of school with.

Conversations I had throughout the summer leading into the school year in preparing for this role. It really gave me an idea of what my impact could and should be. Knowing full well that over time, if that may shift. But for now I didn't wanna come and light a new torch but just get a feel for everything and try to work together to push forward.

Dr. Jim: When I opened the show, we talked about how this is gonna be a talent focused conversation.

How do you find talent in general, and then how do you specifically find talent to fill those more difficult roles that you have to fill? I can understand how that would be a big focus in, let's say a single school district or a small environment. How does that challenge become different or more challenging in a larger environment?

t we are dealing with day to [: 00:12:00

It is tough and we are faced with a set of pretty unique challenges that not every district in the state is, it's really a perfect storm of things that are creating these challenges for us. So through a couple of those, new 10 years or so. Put on a put a law in place that said you could not raise your local tax lobby by more than 2%. But over the past seven years, the state's been taking away considerable dollars from a large percentage of the communities of which West Milford is one of them.

re receiving from the state. [: 00:13:00

So now we don't have the budget to compete with some of these larger districts. On top of the fact that we're out here on the outskirt a.

We live in a rural community that borders New York State, so one whole side of my community I can't pull people from to the west. We have we're on the county line there and we've got, again, more rural, less, less populated area. And then to our east you pretty quickly get into more densely populated districts.

Losing that state funding that have more money to, to support their needs. And it really was creating some issues for us because it was there's only so many people to pull from and we don't have the dollars to appeal them to come here, and we don't have the candidate pool to we don't have the candidate pool to make it happen.

f a district that presents a [: 00:14:00

So you have two sort of things that you have to solve for in the district. You have to fill the roles that you have, and then you have to build and maybe even before that, you have to have enough of a pipeline coming in. So if I'm mapping all of that out, where did you start when it came to solving both of those issues?

'cause you have to you, you have to be able to solve not only finding talent, but finding talent that fills those hard roles. So how did you get rolling on solving those two problems?

Dr. Brian Kitchin: Yeah. Again, unique circumstance and we gotta get creative with how we take care of that. One of the factors I didn't even mention previously was the fact that there's also some certification restrictions that are creating some of these issues. The state of New Jersey now requires that special education teachers be highly qualified in their specific content area at the secondary level, math, science social studies.

cation called Teacher of the [: 00:15:00

What we started to realize was that the state does allow. At special education in particular state people for a certificate of eligibility in education, standalone certification, and then you taking some of that coursework,. We're ha we have so few people in these applicant pools and the ones that we do, they might have a bunch of years of experience in 10 different districts.

ying for that certificate of [: 00:16:00

Dr. Jim: When you're looking at, all of those different. Nested challenges. What did you try to solve first?

Dr. Brian Kitchin: That's a good question. I think, like I was talking about earlier, when you're plugging people in that are walking around with these certs for jobs that are in high demand and yet the individual can't hold one of them we filled positions like that because we needed to get somebody into those seats.

d be highly successful, more [: 00:17:00

They're just not. Certificated to do those jobs. How do we get them quickly and efficiently into these other roles because the role they're vacating is something that I do believe that I could fill. So that's what alerted us to the fact that we needed to make this transition and got us to the point where we said what's in it for the teachers?

How are we going to get them? Make these changes. So we started having conversations about what sort of incentives could exist for our teachers. It started with administrative conversations, board of ed level conversations, but also branched into conversations with the teachers union to see what it is that they thought would be appropriate to get their members to want these other other jobs that nobody seemed to be taking.

Dr. Jim: It's important that you highlight all of the conversations that happened across those stakeholders to start making these pivots and as important as those conversations are. You're probably dealing with a teacher population that's happy doing what they're doing. Hey, I'm good at what I do.

[: 00:18:00

Dr. Brian Kitchin: So most often I think the people who are willing to make those transitions are people who have had at least a low level of exposure to the role they're gonna be stepping into. Again, special education being one of the biggest challenges we face in filling some of these jobs.

A lot of times the teachers that I'm looking to put into those roles, they've worked in co-teaching settings where they've got a special ed teacher pushing into their room in an in class resource setting. So haven't been. The the person certificated to be pushing into somebody else's room.

because they worked together [: 00:19:00

How. Can tell you confidently that these people are capable of it. They're just not allowed to be put into those roles. So to go to them where they know what they'd be getting themselves into, there's just maybe some other barriers like the coursework, the financial impact of trying to get that, those courses and those certificates.

Really that's the approach was trying to tackle the obstacles that would be in their way, if they may otherwise be interested in the transition.

Dr. Jim: So let's talk about that. You talk about, these obstacles. That might be preventative or at least blockers to get them into the role even though they're familiar with it. Having had done some of these co-teaching exercises what were those obstacles and how did you move them out of the way to make that transition and those pivots easier?

But in many cases, they are [: 00:20:00

And that's where the conversation with the union really came into play because we have a structure in place for us to help with course reimbursement for people looking for higher education. But. The many times the teachers that would be more willing to move are the ones that are not tenured in our district and they're not eligible for that tuition reimbursement, or the tuition reimbursement is capped at a certain number of credits.

We had the conversation with the union basically saying, look, there's a pot of money that exists. Reimbursement for your tenured members. We don't wanna touch that pot. That pot still exists for people who are interested in going and a master degree or a doctoral degree or specific courses in a in one area or another, but.

ts? We can help pay for that [: 00:21:00

It's really shortsighted to think that we shouldn't or couldn't afford to pay for those courses because if the alternative is that I'm bringing somebody in with 15 years of experience, albeit not great experience, that person is coming in more expensive than a step one or step two teacher, and I've gotta pay that money every year after year for a lower quality product.

If I can instead fill that position with one of my own people who's younger, lower on the salary guide. Spend some money up front to get them the certifications they need, but then also backfill them with candidates from a larger applicant pool where I may have, more affordable options to put into those seats.

It ends up being more cost efficient for us. And in many cases, these are jobs that I was having trouble filling and have been vacant. So they're budgeted for, we're just not paying for them right now anyway, so the dollars are there to help support some of this.

Dr. Jim: [: 00:22:00

So you laid that out to me. That, these are conversations that you had, but how did you build momentum across those stakeholder groups so that they understand that this is the better actual financial option?

Dr. Brian Kitchin: I think it's transparency and dialogue that makes the biggest difference, right? So if we are having conversations about what the long impact is going be it's really for us to paint the picture that, that even if you're just looking at dollars, this is going to save you money in the long run.

And here's why. So we go through exactly, what we're spending on certain things. We look at our salary guide, discuss the difference between, a 15 year veteran and a three year veteran or a first year teacher. And I think people can really see that value. I think in a small town community like this where I told you earlier, a lot of people stick around.

A [: 00:23:00

Dr. Jim: That makes sense. Now you've had the conversations with the unions and the community, and you've talked through the business case for making this sort of switch.

You still have this challenge of people that are at the teaching level who are set in, these other roles. How did you what sort of incentives did you put in beyond? Just the educational component that entice folks to consider this as a new pathway into a different role.

Dr. Brian Kitchin: Yeah. So I think the other thing that we're looking to do to set ourselves apart because when you're bringing outside people in or you're transitioning your own people into these roles we're competing over the same jobs that a lot of other districts are as well. So for me.

Trying to [: 00:24:00

So if a position has been open for 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, we have this sort, we have, we're looking to add these sort of signing bonuses for those roles because they've been difficult to fill. And now we're looking to say, look, we'll even give you some money upfront for transitioning into that role.

r certificate of eligibility [: 00:25:00

Dr. Jim: It's interesting that you're talking about the signing bonus component of it, and I'm assuming this would be available to external candidates coming in, but I would imagine if I'm an internal candidate and I don't have the opportunity to get that signing bonus, I'd be irritated.

So did you make it available to everybody or was it just for I external candidates?

Dr. Brian Kitchin: It is, it's available to our internal candidates as well. Again, that's all part of the agreement that we were creating with the teachers union, and that's where that conversation was really important to make sure everybody understood the value in this. Yeah so basically we had a dialogue about what was gonna be fair and appropriate and.

into that difficult to fill [: 00:26:00

Dr. Jim: When you look at this entire process, it's still relatively new within your district. I. What are some of the impacts that you've seen so far as you've pivoted away into this new model?

Dr. Brian Kitchin: For some of these positions that we are. We have been able to have conversations with candidates that have come in. I've had a few positions this year where I have a teacher going out on maternity leave. So I've got a person who is sitting in front of me interviewing for that job or has been recommended to me for hire for that job.

And as they come down and. Sit with me to go through what the offer would be for that temporary position. I also get to have that conversation with them and say, Hey, look, I not from the credits required for this role. Is that something you might be interested in long term? I've got positions here.

me to have the conversation [: 00:27:00

Dr. Jim: I think the aspect that I like about what you just described is that one of the challenges when it comes to recruitment in general, and this applies to every industry, there are more jobs and there are people to fill them. So when you have a good candidate in front of you, you have to figure out. How can we get them into our organization and then figure out the rest after the fact? I think what happens often in a lot of hiring situations is [00:28:00] that you get locked in on one particular role and you're trying to fill that one particular role instead of flipping it the other way around. I have a really good candidate.

How can I find a seat for this really good candidate somewhere in my organization that makes sense so that we can develop them once they're inside the door. So that's what I really like about about what you're describing, and I think that has a lot of legs, I want you to take a step back.

We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, and I want you to speak directly to other leaders in other districts who might be dealing with the same sort of challenges. And they're thinking about, oh, you know what Brian talked about in this is, it has got potential. So if I want to think about redeploying my talent strategy or using a redeployment talent strategy, what are the key things that they need to keep in mind to get started on a process of doing something similar to what you did?

e. Not every district is the [: 00:29:00

So I think understanding the hurdles you have to navigate and understanding the perspective on this, the you may have an administrative team that thinks this is a great idea, you don't have the support of the teacher's union. You may have the support of the teacher's union, but the Board of Education is not interested in this because of the perceived added costs in certain budget lines.

So I think the dialogue with all involved parties is really important because, it the benefit is there. You need to make sure everybody sees it right. This information on how you handle this. I often use the analogy that some of this information is like apples on a tree.

olved in the discussion, you [: 00:30:00

Dr. Jim: The big thing that I get from what you just mentioned is that when you're looking at something. Like this, it's important to get going and then fill in the details and figure out the details as you go. Oftentimes what happens is that when you have any sort of new initiative or new thing that you wanna try, everybody sits in the planning stage and it never gets off the ground.

I. Because like you said it creates an opportunity to throw up a whole bunch of roadblocks on why something like this couldn't work instead of let's figure out how to make it work. So I think that's a really important guidance, at least that what I'm taking away from it. If people want to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

n, the challenges that we've [: 00:31:00

Dr. Jim: I appreciate you hanging out with us, Brian. And when I think about this conversation, it really hits one of those nerd areas of mind. Having been a recruiter for a, a really long period of my career. And I think one of the big things that I take away from this conversation is that.

You have to be focused on just finding good people, and I think that's easy enough to say, but when you have a good person that's in front of you. If you're dealing with a number of different roles that might be viable within your organization, don't fall into love with the one particular role that you're trying to fill.

Fall in love with that particular person that's in front of you that you think is gonna be really solid and find a seat for them at the table within your organization. It was one of the big sources of frustration for me when I was in recruiting was that you would have obviously qualified candidates that could fit any number of roles, but hiring managers would get stuck on the one role that they're trying to fill and let a good candidate get away instead of figuring out a way for them to enter into the organization.

So what you [: 00:32:00

And those are the questions that districts and organizations need to ask. How do we keep our people that we know are good growing and challenged within our organization? So I appreciate you sharing that with us. For those of you who've been listening to this conversation, if you like the discussion, make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player.

You haven't already done, so make sure you join our K through 12 leadership community and then tune in next time where we'll have another leader hanging out with us and sharing with us the game changing insights that help them build a high performance team.